Sad State of Affairs: Physical Infidelity Versus Emotional Infidelity in a Relationship

00:00

Tired of toxic, boring, or dead-end relationships? Feeling lonely or clueless when it comes to love? Need a fresh perspective? Well, you found it. This is Romancipation, a podcast that challenges conventional ideas about sex, love, dating, and mating. Hosts Marlee and Lis offer candid and provocative advice about what it takes to find the partner you deserve.

00:29 

It's time to rethink your approach to your love life. Take charge and get Romancipated.

Marlee:

On today's episode, Sad State of Affairs: Physical Versus Emotional Infidelity in a Relationship. 

Lis:

Ooh, sad state indeed. 

Marlee:

It is a sad state. So I want to talk about the difference between physical and emotional cheating in a relationship.

00:56

But before I do, I want to break down the different types of cheating. 

Lis:

Okay. 

Marlee:

Because I think that we all think we're familiar with what cheating is, but I did a little research, Lis. 

Lis:

Okay. 

Marlee:

I did a little deep dive. 

Lis:

Yeah. 

Marlee:

All right. 

Lis:

Okay. 

Marlee:

And apparently, there are definitions of like infidelity that I don't necessarily think of as infidelity.

01:24

But I'd love to hear your thoughts. 

Lis:

Yeah. Okay. 

Marlee:

Okay. So obviously there's the physical infidelity, right? 

Lis:

Yeah. We all know that one. 

Marlee:

We all know about, right? As in like somebody touches somebody they're not supposed to, right? Because they're already involved with another person.

Lis:

Someone is putting it in the wrong hole. 

Marlee:

Yeah, that's right.

01:41

Exactly. 

Lis:

Yeah. 

Marlee:

So there's physical infidelity. There's something called micro cheating. 

Lis:

What? 

Marlee:

Okay, so this is a term for behaviors like maybe flirting that crosses a line. 

Lis:

Okay. 

Marlee:

Maybe, provocative dancing, flirtatious texts, compliments that may have a little bit of sexual innuendo to them. 

Lis:

Okay. 

Marlee:

Right. 

02:07

Things that might be seen as crossing a line, even though the person engaging in that behavior doesn't have any intention of following through and cheating. 

Lis:

Okay. 

Marlee:

And I’ve got to tell you, for me, the first one, right? Physical infidelity is a very black and white thing. 

Lis:

Yeah. I mean, yeah. 

Marlee:

But the micro cheating…

02:28

guilty. I'm sorry, I love flirting.

Lis:

When you were reading off that list, I was kind of like, oh, guilty on that one.  

Marlee:

Yeah. Right. I mean, I love to dance provocatively. 

Lis:

Yeah.

Marlee:

I know you do too. 

Lis:

Yeah. 

Marlee:

And in front of our husbands. 

Lis:

Oh yeah. 

Marlee:

Right. I mean, we've gone dancing. 

Lis:

Nobody, nobody's said anything to me. 

Marlee:

I like a good grind.

02:45 

It's fun. Right? 

Lis:

It’s fun. 

Marlee:

I mean, it doesn't mean anything to me. Right? And I don't know about you, but I don't think our husbands have ever had an issue with it. I think they always laugh. 

Lis:

No. Well, and you know what? Okay, so as soon as you said micro cheating, my mind, even like immediately went to, well, I do like half of those things on the list that you kind of, you know, like the flirting and the dancing and the dress.

03:07

You know how I'm dressing. Like, you know…

Marlee:

You are a slutty dresser now. I'm not shaming here. It just means you got a banging body and you show it. 

Lis:

Thank you. Well, yeah. I mean, you know, but on the flip side of it, if somebody is intentionally hurt by some of those things, I don't know. I could see how somebody…it would make somebody uncomfortable.

03:27

Marlee:

Yeah. No.

Lis:

Listen. I wouldn't necessarily think that it's cheating, but at the same time…

Marlee:

I agree. 

Lis:

I feel like it's somebody you're crossing somebody's boundaries. 

Marlee:

That's right. I can see it as certain people deeming it as disrespectful. 

Lis:

Right. 

Marlee:

I wouldn't, I mean, gosh, when I thought like the sexual innuendo, hello.

03:45

Every other thing that comes out of my mouth is like some type of sexual innuendo. But I mean, I guess I get it. 

Lis:

It's your partner's comfort level with your actions. 

Marlee:

I mean, look, I know that when friends of mine, their spouses or partners or significant others, like if I'm dressed in a sort of provocative way…

04:05

which I also enjoy showing my body, I'm proud of it. I like showing it. 

Lis:

Yeah. You should.

Marlee:

If they give me a compliment, I never see that as crossing the line. I'm like, oh, thank you. Thank you for noticing. 

Lis:

Right. You've noticed my like hard work. Yeah, exactly. 

Marlee:

Exactly. Yeah. And I've never had an issue if my husband has complimented.

04:24

another woman. 

Lis:

No, same.

Marlee:

So if anything, I'm proud of him for doing that because I think he's just made somebody's day. So I'm fascinated. But it is a real category of infidelity and so, you know, I say that it's valid if something makes you feel uncomfortable. Right? 

Lis:

Right.

04:44 

Marlee:

Even if it doesn't make you, or I feel uncomfortable, it makes somebody else feel uncomfortable. They're valid in saying that it's a violation of a boundary. 

Lis:

100%. 

Marlee:

Okay. 

Lis:

Whether or not, I think it's cheating…

Marlee:

Exactly. 

Lis:

But it's definitely a disrespect if you don't. 

Marlee:

Yes. 

Lis:

Okay. 

Marlee:

The next one, this is another interesting one, cyber infidelity.

05:02

And that is seen as any type of online or social media engagement, right? Where maybe it can be people are chatting with each other in a flirtatious way. Maybe they're sending dick pics and booby pics and coochie pics to each other. Maybe they're watching porn. Maybe they're actively engaging in online mutual masturbation, watching each other, or chatting about it.

05:34

Lis:

Okay. That one's a tough one too, because I mean, there's definitely elements of that that I probably would feel uncomfortable with, but then there's also parts of that that I don't really view as cheating. 

Marlee:

Yeah.

Lis:

I mean, listen, like if you're engaging in a conversation and you're texting pictures back and forth and you're like engaging with somebody else on a video, I would probably view that a boundary breaker for me.

Marlee:

I would consider that cheating.

06:00

Listen, if I walk into my bedroom and I see my partner going at his junk while some chick is on a screen going at hers, I would consider that cheating.

Lis: 

Absolutely, yeah. No, that's what I'm saying. Like there's parts of it, but then somebody just watching a porn video or like reading a Playboy and jerking off, like it doesn't offend me or bother me.

06:22

So as long as there's not another person involved in a dialogue or like a conversation or like a mutual…

Marlee:

What if it's like a paid person, like an Only Fans type of thing where they may be interacting, but you know that they're interacting with maybe a million people. Do you see what I mean?

06:40

Lis: 

That's a whole thing? Like Only Fans, it's a live thing? Like a live stream? 

Marlee:

I don’t know if it's a live thing, but I, I mean, from what I understand, they make a ton of money by interacting with a ton of people. 

Lis:

Oh, I thought it was like more of like a video thing and then you type in comment. I don’t know. I don’t know enough about it.

06:56

Marlee:

I don't know. I don’t know enough about it either, but I assume there are those kinds of online things. 

Lis:

I'm sure everything exists online. 

Marlee:

Yeah. Where somebody can be like, chatting with the person who's masturbating or doing something.

Lis:

Oh, I see.  

Marlee:

But they might be chatting with a bunch of people at the same time.

07:15

Like it's not like they're just doing it with your partner. Does that make sense?

Lis:

It's not an individual thing.

Marlee:

Versus two individuals in their bedrooms or in their living rooms and they're just doing whatever they do online with each other. Does that make sense?

Lis:

Okay. Yes, I hear what you're saying.

07:31 

I feel like the one-on-one probably is definite for me. 

Marlee:

Yes. 

Lis:

The, the dropping into like a comment like, uh, I don't know. I feel like the online world is so vast and so many different things can happen. 

Marlee:

Yes. 

Lis:

And you know, it's no longer just like the centerfold of a Playboy, like you're going into the bathroom like now it is much more interactive, if you will. 

Marlee:

Yeah, no, and I feel like I agree. 

Lis:

I don't know enough about it, but I know where my personal boundaries are, and to me, the individual interaction would definitely be…I would deem it inappropriate for myself. 

Marlee:

Okay. So this is a perfect segue into the emotional cheating.

08:08

Lis:

Okay. 

Marlee:

Because I think that is why it starts getting iffy, even if you know these people are thousands of miles away potentially. Right? 

Lis:

Right. 

Marlee:

Even different countries. 

Lis:

Sure. 

Marlee:

It's the fact that they are communicating. 

Lis:

Right. 

Marlee:

And the moment they're communicating. There's an element of intimacy. 

08:30

Lis:

Yeah.

Marlee:

So, I mean, look, emotional cheating, I think is something that a lot of people don't have a good grasp on. 

Lis:

Yeah. 

Marlee:

I know for me, I never really thought about emotional cheating until I started doing research for this episode. 

Lis:

Ooh, interesting. 

Marlee:

Yeah. 

Lis:

Okay. Because I feel like I've heard about it and, and thought about it quite a bit because I feel like you start to hear about different areas where it can penetrate your life and…

Marlee:

Oh, like penetrate.

09:02

Lis:

Yeah. But okay, maybe, like if you give me your definition just to make sure we're on the same page cause I feel like I have kind of in my head something. 

Marlee:

So, I mean, I guess what I had always thought of emotional cheating as in the sort of traditional sense was that, you know, almost flirtatiousness that turned into a conversation that then turned into a physical affair.

09:26

Right? And that might happen all in like one night. Does that make sense? 

Lis:

Okay. Yeah.  

Marlee:

I never thought of it as an ongoing, intimate relationship where there doesn't have to be any physical element. 

Lis:

Right. Okay. 

Marlee:

But just the person is opening up to this other individual who is not their partner.

09:48

Right? And they are talking about their deepest, darkest fantasies. They are talking about their worries, their fears, their emotions, they're sharing their thoughts, all things that they don't do with their primary partner. 

Lis:

Right. 

Marlee:

They are, I don't know, they're comparing their life with their current partner and criticizing it and doing all these things that are extreme violations in my mind.

10:19

Lis:

Well, I was going to say, everything that you just said to me feels very intimate. So it's intimacy without necessarily having the physical contact. So I mean, to me, that's exactly where my head goes when you talk about an emotional affair, like I'm glad that we're kind of on the same page, like once you've laid it out.

10:36

Marlee:

Well yeah. I think it's perfectly fine for people to have strong friendships and like very close friendships with individuals who are not their partners. 

Lis: 

Absolutely. And of the opposite sex. 

Marlee:

And are of the opposite sex. 

Lis:

I think it's totally natural. 

Marlee:

You know the whole like work-wife, work-husband, family friends, couple friends.

10:59

Lis:

You're interacting with people of the opposite sex all the time. 

Marlee:

Yeah. 

Lis:

It's just a matter of where you take that relationship and I guess to me it's also a matter of how strong of a foundation you have with your partner. 

Marlee:

Well, yeah. I think if you don't have strong foundation, it makes sense. 

Lis:

You're looking and you're needing to pull things from somebody else.

11:19 

Marlee:

That's right. 

Lis:

I think you get that validation and you know, intimacy from somebody else, because..

Marlee:

I’ve got to tell you, validation is an aphrodisiac. 

Lis:

That's so hot.

Marlee:

Right? 

Lis:

Oh yeah. 

Marlee:

No, I mean, it's true, right? People love being validated. 

Lis:

That's right. 

Marlee:

And so I do think that if you're getting the validation and the emotional support from this other person instead of from your partner, I can see how what might have started off as an innocent friendship can become so much more complicated and I can see how maybe some sexual feelings or longing or desire can start to form for this other person. 

Lis:

Right. Well, I was going to say one, it's a love language, right? 

Marlee:

Yeah. 

Lis:

Like the validation is definitely a love language. People need like words of affirmation and different things.

Marlee:

Yes, they do. 

12:07

Lis:

But the thing for me about the emotional affair is that I feel like it's such a slippery slope into a physical affair, right? 

Marlee:

Yes. 

Lis:

Because you're getting all of these intimate kinds of needs met and all of a sudden, like a physical attraction would most likely start to form. 

Marlee:

No, I do agree. I mean, listen, I think that one of the easiest tests for you to know whether or not, if the friendship you have is actually an emotional affair and you're cheating on your partner is, think of it this way, in a healthy friendship, right? It doesn't threaten the stability of your romantic relationship. 

Lis:

Right.

Marlee:

Does that make sense? 

Lis:

Yep. 

Marlee:

Because the other person somehow fulfills some emotional needs or wants that your partner is not fulfilling.

12:58

Lis:

Yep. makes sense. 

Marlee:

The moment you need that other person to fill in your emotional bucket, so to speak? 

Lis:

Yep. 

Marlee:

Because your partner is not, now you're in emotional affair territory. 

Lis:

Oh yeah. You're dipping your toe into murky water. 

Marlee:

What do you consider worse? Emotional, physical as in like the old sex-olas, micro cheating and cyber infidelity.

13:25 

Lis:

My head immediately always goes to the physical intimacy, so I feel like I want to rank that first, but now that we're talking about the emotional piece of it, I don't know, I, to me they're almost on an equal playing level because I feel like if my husband was having those intimate conversations with somebody else, it would be a gut punch.

13:45

Like I would feel horrible. And I mean, the physical piece of it is already to me, like you said, black and white. So 100% that's, you know, you're taking into account maybe bringing somebody crazy into my life, you know, disease, like, I mean, there's, there's so many elements to it that are so unacceptable to me. Right? So, I mean, I don't know, I wanted to say physical at first, but I, they're almost like even to me. And then, you know, the cyber infidelity, again, if that is something that is between, like if there is like an intimate level of communication between two people, my partner and somebody else, I would definitely probably rank that third.

14:27

And then maybe the micro cheating for me personally would be last only because I don't find most of those things that are on that list inappropriate. So, you know, it's not to say that they're not important and definitely couldn't cross a boundary, but. You know, so I would probably almost physical and emotional tied almost.

14:46

And then cyber infidelity and then micro cheating. 

Marlee:

Okay. So mine are a little different. 

Lis:

Okay. 

Marlee:

I agree with everything you were saying, but I would say physical first. 

Lis:

Yeah. 

Marlee:

And the reason physical would be the worst for me is because I am such a strong believer in self-preservation. And what you talked about with physical, you are potentially bringing in disease to me.

15:13

Lis:

Yep. 

Marlee:

Or a psycho. And also you're potentially creating another child. 

Lis:

Right. So there’s an endangering element to it. 

Marlee:

Yeah. So for me, that aspect of bringing that danger into my intimate world is inexcusable. 

Lis:

It's the worst violation. 

15:30 

Marlee:

Yes. I almost rank the cyber. If not the watching the porn and whacking off to anything. 

Lis:

Right, right, right. 

Marlee:

But the actual, like you said, sort of interaction, but with a very sexual nature. 

Lis:

Right.

Marlee:

I would rank that, I think as second because what's to say that the protection of the screen doesn't all of a sudden disappear?

16:00

Does that make sense? 

Lis:

No, it does. Yeah, it makes sense. 

Marlee:

I would rank the emotional as third. And the reason is because if my partner would need to go to another person to have his emotional voids filled. 

Lis:

Yeah. 

Marlee:

Then that tells me that there is something seriously wrong with our relationship.

16:23 

Lis:

Right. And it's a both of you problem, not just a him problem. 

Marlee:

Exactly. And it's something that I would need to really address. And I think it would in many ways, signal to me that this is just not the right relationship for me.

Lis:

Or that you need to get professional help together. 

Marlee:

Yeah, absolutely.

16:41

But that we've just drifted so far apart or if we never were on the same page. Right?

Lis:

Right. Yeah. 

Marlee:

And then the micro cheating. I can't be a hypocrite. I'm completely guilty of it. So, I can’t say that that would offend me. I'm a flirtatious person, so I've never had a problem with any partner that I've been with being flirtatious.

17:00

But I can understand for people who are not, how they would view that again as a potential opening to something more sinister. 

Lis:

Absolutely. Yep. 

Marlee:

So, you know, I do get that. So that would sort of be my ranking. Do you think men and women have different views as to which is more… 

Lis:

Absolutely. 

Marlee:

Oh, you didn't even let me finish my question.

17:23 

Which is, which is more serious? 

Lis:

I think for men, the physical is 100%...

Marlee:

Agree. Yeah. I mean, agree. Because then you're somehow insulting their manhood. 

Lis:

Absolutely. 

Marlee:

You know, the physical, for them, it's all about the ego. 

Lis:

Absolutely. I feel like the cyber piece for them, they'd probably want to jump in.

17:41

They're like, sweet, can we do this together?

Marlee:

Yeah. Right. I feel like they, like she watches porn. Yeah. Awesome. Right? 

Lis:

Yeah. Like girl. Exactly. And I think that they probably don't think as much about the emotional cheating. I think eventually if it led to something physical, it would definitely impact them. And listen, I'm not going to generalize.

17:58

Obviously, I know some men probably don't feel that way.

Marlee:

Right.

Lis:

But I do feel like that would probably be lower on their list. And I think the micro cheating though, I would actually say because there is the flirtatious element because there is potentially like the dressing provocatively. 

Marlee:

See, I put that above the emotional cheating.

18:14

Lis:

I am too. Yes. That's what I'm saying. 

Marlee:

I think, yes. 

Lis:

They would definitely feel that that was more of a violation for them because it's something that they would be witnessing happening and would be that…

Marlee:

Again, an insult to their egos. 

Lis:

Correct. Yeah, so I, I would say physical, probably the micro cheating, then the emotional cheating, and then maybe the cyber cheating last because I don't really think that they would think that that was such a violation.

18:37

If you're in a relationship with somebody and there is emotional cheating going on, then to me that is a couple problem and that is something that probably needs to be addressed through therapy or a better communication. You really need to take a look at your relationship holistically.

18:52

I think anytime you get into physical infidelity or something that has a connection to it, I think that that's your partner's problem. I think that they are the one choosing to make this bad choice. 

Marlee:

Yes.

Lis:

They're choosing to stray. They're choosing to put you potentially in harm's way. I don't think that that has anything to do with you personally, right?

19:15

I think that that has to do with your partner. So the emotional cheating is kind of like a couple's problem, but the rest of it is really a them problem. 

Marlee:

Yeah, no, I think that's a great way of putting it. You know, ultimately, I think Lis that the reason infidelity, any type, is such a sad state of affairs is because just the impact that it has on the primary relationship, right? I mean, there's trust destruction. 

Lis:

Yes. 

Marlee:

There's absolute violation of boundaries. We talked about a physical safety issue, whether it's diseases or inviting psychos or danger into your home. Obviously if there's children, there's familial destruction.

19:52

Lis:

Sure. 

Marlee:

It completely upsets the couple dynamic. It can upset the extended family members. 

Lis:

Yeah.

Marlee:

Right? Depending on who the cheating's with. Children start to learn those patterns. 

Lis:

Oh yeah. 

Marlee:

And they themselves can get impacted and end up engaging in the exact same behaviors. The feeling of betrayal. 

Lis:

Yeah. I was going to say betrayal, trust, like that dynamic…

Marlee:

Is so difficult to overcome.

20:15

It instantly puts your financial situation in jeopardy. 

Lis:

Sure. Absolutely. 

Marlee:

There's always the potential of creating a child out of like an affair and then all the responsibilities that come with that. The destruction to self-esteem. 

Lis:

Yeah. 

Marlee:

Wow. The embarrassment. 

Lis:

Oh yeah. 

Marlee:

The shame that people might feel even like societal pressure that people might feel because of how different institutions they're involved with, like the church or like clubs.

Lis:

And how do you react to it?

Marlee:

Exactly. 

Lis:

How or not you're going to stay with this person. Whether or not you're going to leave them.

Marlee:

Yeah. And then obviously if you are married, there are serious legal consequences. Right?

20:59 

Lis:

Right.

Marlee:

And that comes with a whole lot of trouble. So I, I just think that, infidelity, whether it's emotional or physical, it really does lead to a sad state of affairs. 

It's venting time with Marlee and Lis. 

Marlee:

It's that time when Lis and I get to vent our frustrations over commonly experienced issues in romantic relationships.

21:18

Today's topic, When a Partner Makes You Feel Guilty About Improving Yourself. 

Lis:

Ugh. The guilt trip. Yeah, I hate it. 

Marlee:

Same here. I hate it. I know you have something to say about this. 

Lis:

All right. Your partner feels like they won't be as desirable to you if you lose weight or get healthy. 

Marlee:

Yep. 

Lis:

It's a form of manipulation to make the other feel bad so that the other person will change their behavior and not try to get healthy.

21:44

Marlee:

Yes. 

Lis:

A partner feels left out because you're evolving and changing without them. There's a feeling of insecurity and abandonment. 

Marlee:

Ooh.

Lis:

I know. It's like, listen, like, ugh, I, I hate the guilt tripping. Sorry. Take it away. 

Marlee:

Okay, so mine are, it indicates a person who's highly insecure and not supportive of their partner.

22:04

Lis:

Yes. 

Marlee:

It's a disrespectful behavior and should not be tolerated. 

Lis:

Nope. 

Marlee:

The person feels like they'll be left behind, so they try to guilt you for getting an education, better job working out or stopping negative or unhealthy behaviors like drinking or drugs. 

Lis:

Ooh, good one. 

Marlee:

It makes people question their own decisions, lifestyles and choices. If they feel like they're being judged indirectly or directly, they often react in a negative manner. 

Lis:

Yes. 

Marlee:

In some relationships, the person might feel like they're losing the upper hand or control over their partner. 

Lis:

Yeah. 

Marlee:

People want partners that are in their league. People may fear that if their partner improves, they become a mismatch.

22:49 

Lis:

Ooh. 

Marlee:

Right. 

Lis:

Good one. 

Marlee:

And finally, I think it indicates lack of empathy for your partner. 

Lis:

Absolutely. 

Marlee:

I mean, if anything, you should be thrilled that your partner has recognized something in themselves that they are not happy with and they're actively taking steps to improve it. 

Lis:

Absolutely. 

Marlee:

So the idea that you would try and guilt somebody when they're actually trying to make themselves better because of how it makes you feel, I think is such a red flag.

23:15

Lis:

It's a you problem. 

Marlee:

Absolutely. 

Lis and I want to thank you so much for joining us this week. To view the complete show notes and a recap of today's podcast or to learn more about us, visit www.romancipation.com. Before you go, make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you can receive notifications of new episodes right when they're released.

23:38

Also, make sure to follow us on Instagram and Facebook. If you're enjoying the podcast, please let us know by leaving a five-star review on Apple or a five-star rating on Spotify.  Reviews let Apple know that great listeners like you enjoy our show and that helps us expand our audience. Thanks again and stay Romancipated.