Loans and Love Do Not Mix

00:00

Tired of toxic, boring, or dead-end relationships? Feeling lonely or clueless when it comes to love? Need a fresh perspective? Well, you found it. This is Romancipation, a podcast that challenges conventional ideas about sex, love, dating and mating. Hosts Marlee and Lis offer candid and provocative advice about what it takes to find the partner you deserve.

00:30

It's time to rethink your approach to your love life. Take charge and get Romancipated. 

Marlee:

Today's topic, Loans and Love Do Not Mix. 

Lis:

No, they don't. 

Marlee:

Okay, so the attorney in me… 

Lis:

Oh Jez, yup.

Marlee:

this is a topic that I just, I don't understand when people make this mistake, it kind of makes me a little crazy. I'm not going to lie.

00:59 

However, it is probably the number one issue that gets adjudicated in front of these like court tv shows, like Judge Judy or Judge Mathis. 

Lis:

Totally.  Totally True.

Marlee:

You know what I mean? It's always like relationships where money was lent or claimed that they were lent. 

Lis:

That's right. You know, or somebody bought something for someone else and, 

Marlee:

And then wants to be repaid.

01:20

Lis:

That's right. Exactly. 

Marlee:

So, this is one of those topics we had talked about an exit strategy in an earlier episode, right, Lis? And we were talking about when you entangle yourself in some way. 

Lis:

Right. 

Marlee:

You know what I mean? It's very hard to leave and it can also be very costly. 

Lis:

Yep. 

Marlee:

Well, the whole loans and love do not mix is a perfect example of that.

01:43

You know, as tempting as it can be to lend money in a relationship, I will always stress that it's a very bad decision, and it was one you'll always come to regret. 

Lis:

Yeah, for sure. 

Marlee:

I seriously believe that there is a very big difference between a loan and a gift. 

Lis:

Yes. 

Marlee:

A loan is when you expect repayment. 

02:05

And you've made it clear to that person that you expect to be repaid in full. 

Lis:

Yes. 

Marlee:

A gift is a gift. It has no repayment. It doesn't need to be reciprocal. You'd hope it's reciprocal that if you give gifts to your partner, they would maybe give you gifts back. 

Lis:

Yes.

Marlee:

But it doesn't need to be. And the fact is, it is not a legal arrangement.

02:27 

It is a gift. That's all it is. And you'd better be very comfortable with whatever gift, especially if it's money. That you're giving to another person. Because like you and I have said, every relationship has an expiration date. 

Lis:

That's right. 

Marlee:

You could give money on Monday and you could be broken up on Tuesday, and if you gave it as a gift, oh well it's, bye-bye.

02:50

You're not going to get it back. 

Lis:

That's right. 

Marlee:

So to think that you somehow should get it back, or you deserve to get it back, what you think doesn't matter. 

Lis:

No. 

Marlee:

You are not entitled to get it back. So I really want people to think about all the consequences of lending money to a loved one. So if you don't mind, I'm going to kind of go over these things cause I really want our listeners to listen.

03:18

Lis:

I was going to say, take it away. 

Marlee:

So first of all, I want everyone to understand that if you lend money to a partner and they don't repay you, even if you're still together…

Lis:

Yep. 

Marlee:

You will resent them. 

Lis:

Oh, for sure. 

Marlee:

Because there is always going to be time Lis where you need money, where you know the issue arises in a relationship.

03:40

Lis:

Yep. 

Marlee:

Whether it's to pay a bill or you want to go somewhere or you want to do something. And if you are short of the cash and you know the reason you're short is because you lent money to your partner and they still haven't paid you. You are going to resent them no matter what you say. Even if you say, oh no I won't.

04:01

Yes, you will. Oh, and by the way, the moment you expect your partner to repay you and you keep hassling them about repaying you, they're going to hate you. It's a no-win situation. 

Lis:

No, it's so true.

Marlee:

Seriously. Cause they're going to be like, I can't believe you want me to pay you back. You know? I mean, I thought when I said, you're lending me the money, I thought you meant, you understood it was a gift, right?

04:21

I mean, that's the attitude people have. In desperate situations, people will ask for money from people that they love, people that they're involved with. 

Lis:

Yeah.

Marlee:

And they'll always say, I don't know if they have the best of intentions, but they'll say, of course I'll pay you back. 

Lis:

Right. 

Marlee:

But most of the time they have no intention of paying you back.

04:39

Lis:

Well, I mean…

Marlee:

They think you owe it to them. 

Lis:

Well, they think you owe it to them. But also, I mean, depending on the earning situation or the earning power in the relationship, whether or not somebody maybe makes more in their profession. You're right. I feel like a lot of people fall back on the, well, they make more than I do.

04:57

Marlee:

That's right. 

Lis:

So if they cover my rent or my part of the rent…

Marlee:

What's the big deal, they can afford it.

Lis:

What’s the big deal. They can afford to do it. Or if they take me out to dinner more than I'm taking them out to dinner, like, well, yeah, they should be. They, you know, people feel like it's owed to them. 

Marlee:

Yes. 

Lis:

But, it's not.

05:12

Marlee:

It is not. It's, it's such an entitled behavior. 

Lis:

Yeah, I agree. And also I think, what you have to understand is another way that resentment builds, is if you lend money to your partner and your partner's financially reckless, irresponsible or just inept at like managing money…

Lis:

Right.

Marlee:

You end up suffering the consequences…

Lis:

Right.

05:33

Instead of letting them suffer the consequences. Now again, you know me, I'm maybe a bit of a negative Nelly, but I have to tell you that you can't save another person from themselves if they've really bad financial habits. 

Lis:

Right.

Marlee:

Now you can certainly try to educate them. If you in fact have good financial habits, you can try and put them together with like an app that shows them how to budget.

05:59

Or you can like try to help them cut up their credit cards if you find out they're getting into like a lot of credit card debt. 

Lis:

Yep. 

Marlee:

But the fact is, when you lend money in a relationship, you are enabling that bad behavior, especially if that's what you're lending the money for. 

Lis:

That's right. You are. You're an enabler.

06:20

Marlee:

Now Listen. In a past episode I talked about where I had a relationship where I would occasionally pay for my boyfriend’s, either half of the rent or like, you know, cover a car payment because he carried a lot of school debt. But I also made it very clear that I knew it was a gift. I gifted him the money. I never expected him to pay it back.

06:45

And I also let you know that in fact, he did end up paying me back.

Lis:

Right.

Marlee:

Because he felt that it wasn't my responsibility 

Lis:

Yeah. 

Marlee:

To cover those costs. Those were his obligations and I, like I'd said back then, and I say it now, I still respect him for doing that. I think it was the right thing to do. 

Lis:

Yeah. 

Marlee:

He didn't have to, because it was a gift.

07:03

Marlee:

It wasn't a loan. 

Lis:

Right. 

Marlee:

But I respect him from do for doing it. 

Lis:

But I also think that you were setting your expectations appropriately as well because had he not given you that money back, you in your head had already written it off. 

Marlee:

That's right. 

Lis:

I'm gifting this to him because if your expectation was that you were going to get paid back eventually resentment would've built up.

Marlee:

Yeah.

07:25

Yeah. I mean, I want people to imagine somebody comes to you, they're like, honey, my car just blew up. I need you to like lend me a thousand dollars for the car repair. And you're like, okay. And you lend them a thousand dollars that you probably really don't have, but you know, you want to be able to make sure their car is safe.

07:43

Lis:

You feel like it's a partnership. 

Marlee:

Yeah. And they can get to work things like. And then you find out that the repairs were only $500 and then they spent the other $500 on a frivolous purchase. You know, a handbag, a gambling with friends, a night out, like at the steakhouse or something, and you're going, are you kidding me?

08:07

Are you frigging kidding me? 

Lis:

I would be livid. Yeah. 

Marlee:

Okay. But here's the deal. When you lend somebody money. They can use it for whatever they want. Like I want people to understand that. The moment you lend that person a thousand dollars, how they choose to actually spend that thousand dollars, you have no say over.

08:25

Lis:

Right. Right. 

Marlee:

Just so you know, you have no say. Now Lis, what you have say over is that they technically, as long as you have something in writing, they need to pay you back. 

Lis:

Right.

Marlee:

But the fact is how they then spend that money is a hundred percent their business. You have no say, but I want you to imagine

08:44

the incredible resentment, the feeling of disrespect, the violation of trust that you would feel if you found out that somebody that you love and care about, that you're involved with, borrowed money from you. They borrowed money from you under the guise of it was for an emergency with their car, when in fact that was partly true.

09:06

But instead of saying, you know what, I was wrong, the, the mechanic overestimated what the car really needed, let me give you back $500. So now I only owe you $500, right of the thousand. Instead, the person's like, well, they gave me the thousand dollar loan, so I'm going to take that newfound cash. I'm going to buy myself something.

09:26

Lis:

They're a liar. 

Marlee:

But guess what? This is common. 

Lis:

That’s horrible.

Marlee:

I'd like to tell you that this is like an unusual situation. It isn't. This is a very common situation. It's just yet another reason why loans and love do not mix. 

Lis:

No. 

Marlee:

Here's the deal, one partner should never expect another partner to act as a bank or a backup plan in case there's a financial emergency for unexpected expenses.

09:51

Lis:

Yeah.

Marlee:

They should never, ever think like that. The only way that's reasonable, is if the two of you have agreed that you are in a serious, committed relationship, either probably cohabitating together or are married. And you guys have agreed to either commingle your funds. 

Lis:

Right.

Marlee:

Which obviously covers things like, you know, medical emergencies or like a broken down car…

Lis:

Absolutely.

Marlee:

Or, you know, like a leaky pipe or whatever, and you guys together have jointly agreed.

10:25

I also want you to think about how would you feel if you found out the person was using you? The person was only involved with you because they knew that you would be willing to lend them money. That you'd allow them to borrow that money. I want you to think about that. 

Lis:

No, I'm…

Marlee:

It would make you feel horrible.

10:47

Lis:

Horrible. 

Marlee:

I can only imagine. I also think it's super important that people understand that you should also never loan money to your partner’s, friends or family

Lis:

Who would do that? 

Marlee:

A lot of people. 

Lis:

Oh my God. 

Marlee:

A lot of people do. Because again, it's a recipe for a disaster. 

Lis:

Yeah. 

Marlee:

Because if your partner's friend or family member doesn't pay you back, think of the position you've put yourself in.

11:17

Lis:

Nope. 

Marlee:

And think of the position you've put your partner in. 

Lis:

Oh yeah. 

Marlee:

They're now stuck in the middle. 

Lis:

No way. 

Marlee:

Yeah, right. It's toxic. Just don't do it. Never, ever, ever do it. Never loan money to your partner’s, friends or family members, because I'm telling you, if you don't get paid back, which is nine out of 10 times the situation.

11:35

Lis:

Yep. 

Marlee:

It creates incredible tension. It destroys and erodes your relationship. 

Lis:

That's right. 

Marlee:

With your partner. Especially if your partner takes the other person's side. 

Lis:

Well, of course. 

Marlee:

Can you imagine? 

Lis:

Yeah, I can. 

Marlee:

Right.

Lis:

I can imagine. 

Marlee:

I mean, it happens. Like you lend to your mother-in-law, you lend money to your mother-in-law Lis, and then you say, pay up.

11:59

You know? Can you imagine your husband's reaction? 

Lis:

Yeah. No. 

Marlee:

Yeah. I, I, yeah. Right? So just avoid it. Don't get yourself into these holes.

Lis:

No way. 

Marlee:

You know what I mean? It's very, very simple. If you're ever going to give money to a romantic partner, please gift it. Because otherwise you are setting yourself up for issue after issue.

12:22

Because I'm telling you, if the loan isn't repaid, it creates a loss of trust, a loss of respect. It makes you feel used and like I had said earlier, especially if you find out that that money was used for other things than what you thought it was going to be used for. You have opened up a can of worms that you are never going to be able to close.

12:46

Lis:

No, you're totally right. I, you know, I'm trying to think about, you just mentioned like gifting money to like a family or friend, and I was trying to rack my brain. I'm like, why would you do that? Who would do that? 

Marlee:

But then a ton of people do. 

Lis:

No, a ton of people will. And but I was trying to think about why, like what would some reasons be and I could actually see a family member or a friend wanting to like start a business or…

Marlee:

Oh, big mistake.

13:11

Lis:

Right? 

Marlee:

Big mistake. 

Lis:

Oh, I've got this plan, like this is what I'm going to do. And to me, I'm just like, okay, I could see somebody like, not like falling for it, but like being, like wanting to support another person.

Marlee:

Okay. 

Lis:

You know, somebody's dream or idea. I don't know. 

Marlee:

But let me, okay. Let me just make a very important clarification for a lot of people.

13:29

A loan is different than an investment. 

Lis:

Okay.

Marlee:

If you loan money to somebody like a family member, or your partner or something to start a business.

Lis:

Right.

Marlee:

That is a legal agreement of where you are saying, I am going to give you X amount of dollars… 

Lis:

Right. 

Marlee:

For so long. You might charge interest, you might not, it might be an interest free loan, and you set when they have to pay you back by.

13:55

So you should always get this in writing. 

Lis:

Yes.

Marlee:

It should always be…it's called a promissory note, but you know, we should always get it in writing. 

Lis:

Yeah. 

Marlee:

And that is alone saying, I really believe in your gym business. 

Lis:

Yes. 

Marlee:

Or your cookie business or something, and I want to invest in it. Giving a person money for investment means that if it ends up working out, you reap the reward and getting some profits.

14:23

And if it ends up tanking, you take the loss. The person you invested with doesn't owe you a thing. So again, a lot of people confused these terms.

Lis:

Really good point.

Marlee:

They think they're loaning somebody money, but the fact is they're actually investing in… 

Lis:

Their idea or dream.

Marlee:

That's right. So that's another very important distinction that I think people need to have.

14:47

Lis:

No, it's true. 

Marlee:

But like I said, I will wrap this up by saying I understand how tempting it is to want to please somebody you're in a relationship with. 

Lis:

Yes. 

Marlee:

And to want to be supportive. And if you have the means to want to be able to share with your partner. 

Lis:

Yup.

Marlee:

And I applaud that. I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, but I am telling you.

15:09

That is why then you always decide to make it a gift. Because a gift is just that. It is a gift. The moment you expect to be paid back, it is a loan, and the only way you have any chance of getting that money back while you're involved with the person is if you have it in writing and you have a clear sense of when they need to pay you back.

15:33

Okay. Now let me tell you this. If the relationship ends. Unless you have something in writing, don't even bother because you're not going to get that money back. The chances of getting the money back are slim to none. You'll end up wasting so much time and energy and possibly money going after them in court.

Lis:

100%

15:55

Marlee:

This is my opinion. 

Lis:

Trying to prove that it was a loan and not a gift.

Marlee:

That is just my opinion. 

Lis:

Yeah, that's right. 

Marlee:

But I'm just telling you. Sometimes you’ve got to just walk away and say that is the price of doing business with that person.

Lis:

And cut your losses.

Marlee:

That's right. Cut your losses. 

It's venting time with Marlee and Lis. 

Marlee:

It's that time when Lis and I get to vent our frustrations over commonly experienced issues in romantic relationships.

16:18

Today's topic, When Your Partner is Late for Dates or Important Occasions.

Lis:

So irritating.

Marlee:

This is a big pet peeve of mine. 

Lis:

Oh, it is. I know that. I know that about you.

Marlee:

It really is. 

Lis:

I know it really is. 

Marlee:

I'm a very punctual person, so I have stuff to say, but why don't you start.

Lis:

Okay. So I want to be clear here first for a second.

16:40

We aren't talking about being late one time because there was an accident on the freeway. We're talking about people that are habitually late. 

Marlee:

Yes. 

Lis:

Ingrained in them, and it's so irritating. 

Marlee:

Yes.

Lis:

You may think that there are great excuses, but after a while it becomes just that excuses. Everyone else on the planet has to deal with traffic life and anything else that makes you late.

17:02

If I can make it work, so can you 

Marlee:

Yes. 

Lis:

Plan ahead, right? Like all we're asking is if you know you're going to be late, leave 10 minutes beforehand. 

Marlee:

Thank you. 

Lis:

Right. It's just, you know this about yourself. I actually have friends that I have to tell like, we're meeting at seven-thirty a lot.

Marlee:

You have to lie.

Lis:

Yes, and I'm going to be there at, you know, eight o'clock because I already know that they're going to show up after me.

17:24

Still. It makes me bonkers. Sorry. Okay. My vent just took a vent. Um, I think showing up late to meet anyone, especially someone you love, shows a lack of consideration for their time. It's unacceptable. Your situation definitely raises red flags and red flags end relationships. So think about. And it's all about respect.

17:45

Respect is not something that's given freely. It has to be earned. And when you are not considerate of somebody else's time, sorry, that is not respectful. 

Marlee:

Okay? Yes, yes. And yes. And I'm now going to continue with that concept because that's my first one. It is a very disrespectful behavior. 

Lis:

Yeah. 

Marlee:

It's beyond frustrating.

18:06

It violates the trust between two people because you feel you cannot depend on them to meet their commitments. 

Lis:

Yes. 

Marlee:

So, if you're going to do something and you've committed to it, you have to follow through. 

Lis:

Yes. 

Marlee:

It sends the message that you aren't special or worth the effort for the person to be on time.

18:27

Lis:

Yep. 

Marlee:

It causes resentment because I know that I made the relationship a priority, and yet my partner did not. It makes you feel unloved and unappreciated. It makes you question the commitment your partner has to you and the relationship. 

Lis:

Sure does. 

Marlee:

Absolutely. It's an incredibly inconsiderate behavior.

18:51

Lis:

Yep. 

Marlee:

It causes embarrassment in front of others. 

Lis:

Oh yeah. If you are waiting on your partner and making excuses for them, you look foolish. They look foolish. And it makes everybody uncomfortable. And I know, I get embarrassed. 

Lis:

Oh, blood boils. 

Marlee:

Yes. 

Lis:

Like, I mean, you're rage texting, trying to figure out where your partner is.

19:11

Marlee:

Exactly. 

Lis:

And you're like Um, hello? Like, this started 15 minutes ago. 

Marlee:

Thank you. 

Lis:

And it kind of ruins your night. 

Marlee:

Yes, it does. Because it instantly changes the tone. 

Lis:

Yeah. 

Marlee:

Now a sudden you're angry and frustrated. 

Lis:

Yes. 

Marlee:

And it sends a message that your partner's time is more valuable than yours. 

19:27

And I think it is such a selfish behavior on the part of the person who's always late. I also think it's incredibly immature.

Lis:

Oh yes.

Marlee:

It's one thing for mommy, you know, to have woken you up for school in the morning. You're now an adult. 

Lis:

That's right. 

Marlee:

You control your schedule. And if you know, that you like

19:45

you started off with saying, if you're habitually late and you know that's a problem, you have to figure out a solution so that you don't make it everybody else's problem. 

Lis:

Personal responsibility, baby. 

Marlee:

Oh yeah. 

Lis and I want to thank you so much for joining us this week. To view the complete show notes and a recap of today's podcast or to learn more about us, visit www.Romancipation.com. Before you go, make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you can receive notifications of new episodes right when they're released. Also, make sure to follow us on Instagram and Facebook. If you're enjoying the podcast, please let us know by leaving a five-star review on Apple or a five-star rating on Spotify. 

20:30

Reviews let Apple know that great listeners like you enjoy our show and that helps us expand our audience. Thanks again and stay Romancipated.